Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Kilgour was a member of the Canadian parliament for 26 years until
January this year. During that time he served in many roles, including
Secretary of State for Asia and the Pacific in the years 2002 and 2003.
TONY JONES: Well, David Kilgour was a member of the Canadian Parliament
for 26 years until January this year. During that time he served in
many roles including Secretary of State for Asia and the Pacific in the
years 2002 and 2003. Prior to entering parliament Mr Kilgour practiced
law, worked as Crown Prosecutor in Manitoba. Mr Kilgour joins us now
from our Canberra studio. Thanks for being there.
DAVID KILGOUR, FORMER CANADIAN MP: Good to be here, Tony. Can I speak to what Tony Wu, you were just saying, in just a minute?
JONES: I'll give you the opportunity to do that. I just want to this to
you, it does seem to me, reading your report in detail, there are only
two possibilities here. One is you've uncovered a new form of evil
we're yet to see and the other is you've been taken in by an incredibly
sophisticated hoax that would make the 'Hitler Diaries' seem simplistic
by comparison. How are we to know which it is, because having read your
report I'm completely uncertain.
DAVID KILGOUR: I'm surprised
because just about everyone who has read it from Europe, from Brussels
to Berlin to Paris to London that I've spoken to is persuaded any
reasonable person reading the report would think that we are right. As
you know, we give 18 different kinds of evidence. Mostly the most
convincing, as you know, is the people in these institutions telling
us, essentially, that they have Falun Gong prisoners ready and
available to be harvested and we give websites in China telling people
who can come and have organ transplants within a week. We give, for
example, today I was... a resident of Canberra, Chen Yang, was telling
us how she was treated abominably while she was in a work camp, but
only the Falun Gong prisoners were examined carefully medically, with
blood tests, their computer-assisted blood transplants. From the 18
kinds of evidence we looked that the case is simply overwhelming. As
terrible as this is, that this is happening on a large scale in many
locations in China.
TONY JONES: There is evidence from people
who have been imprisoned and who are now free, that they saw fellow
Falun Gong practitioners in prison given extensive medical testing and
that is corroborative evidence to what you've been saying, isn't it?
KILGOUR: Yes, but my colleague who is here actually with me from
Europe, the Europe Parliament, McMillan Scott, Edward McMillan Scott -
Vie-President of the European Parliament, by the way - was in China
recently, as you know, and somebody he met there had told him he had
seen his best friend with his organs removed. This man has disappeared
and that's why McMillan Scott is here with me in Australia because he's
so concerned this could happen tow a person who speaks to a visiting
TONY JONES: Alright. It's so important. Let's go straight
to an examination of the evidence, including the evidence that you just
cited earlier about the phone calls. You have in your report a series
of transcripts of telephone conversations with various senior doctors,
hospital and medical staff in different parts of China. An unnamed
person you call M, secretly records those calls, at least one group of
them. Now, the people on the other end of the phone appear the simply
condition firm details of the allegations that political prisoners are
being kept as a kind of live organ bank of healthy donors for sick
people with enough money to get transplants. Tell us why you believe
these recording, these critical recordings, were not fabricated.
KILGOUR: Well, people who I've listened to them. I don't speak
Mandarin, but I've listened to the tapes with an independently hired
interpreter. I had the transcript in my hand and he translated to me
from the text, as he heard it, the digital recording, and I had the
text in front of me and he signed off that these reports were accurate
and I'm satisfied, having - as a former prosecutor having examined very
carefully how these were done. We looked at phone records; we looked at
all kind of things to make sure they were fairly and properly done. I
don't think there's any basis whatsoever for thinking these are a hoax
or some kind of attempt to pull the wool over anybody's eyes?
JONES: Let's go through it a little more. Evidently the person called M
puts in calls to a senior public security official in Zhangxi Province,
a senior physician in Shenyang, a senior surgeon in a Beijing army
hospital, and over the phone to someone they've never met and evidently
not spoken to before, they begin to spill out quite openly what you
would think would be state secrets. I can't understand why anyone would
DAVID KILGOUR: That's a good question. I, of course,
asked that, too. The reality is that she called a great many hospitals
and as I understand it many of the people were smart enough to say they
shouldn't say this, but about 15 across the country people were either
vain enough, or foolish enough or honest enough, to fess up to what was
available. And as you probably know from the transcripts sometimes they
will say "we're not supposed to talk act that" or "it's a state
secret," or this or that. But in about 15 institutions, which we cite
in the report, people were candid enough to spill the beans on a system
that the human mind, I don't think, could have invented.
TONY JONES: How was M representing herself in these phone calls, because that is unclear in the report?
KILGOUR: I went over that very carefully with her as well. She was
representing herself as somebody who was seeking an organ for a member
of her family and she was speaking, of course, in Mandarin. The person
did not know that she was calling...from where in China she was
calling, did not know, in fact, she was calling from North America.
JONES: Did you do any cross-checking to verify that the people
supposedly on the other end of the phone are actually the people
reported as being in those conversations. A senior doctor in the
Beijing army hospital, for example. One could check the numbers, one
could go back and find it. Is this the same voice?
KILGOUR: We have checked the numbers and in some cases where we've
called back - in fact, one extraordinary case, we were able to get
through. Not "we", they were able to get through to the incinerator
were bodies were burned and the man in the incinerator admitted this
was happening. I mean, China is such a big country and the system is so
massive, they weren't able to tell everybody, "Don't say a word." I
have for doubt if somebody called now everybody has been told to say
nothing. In fact, one of the colleagues told me she rang recently and
the person hung up immediately when they heard her on the other end of
the line. It will not work now, I'm quite satisfied, but as recently as
June, Tony, these calls were being put through and in some cases these
extraordinary admissions were being made.
TONY JONES: Who is putting the calls through? Because you say "they". Did you have an investigative staff?
KILGOUR: Two people. One in Canada and one in Boston, actually. These
people did it very carefully. We have the digital recordings. We've
made them available to any serious person who wants to look at them, or
listen to them.
TONY JONES: And are governments looking at
this material? Is this going to intelligence services, people who would
be able to do all of the checking and cross-checking that is necessary?
DAVID KILGOUR: I'm more than happy to make them available to
governments. We've been appealing to governments, including your own
government here in Australia - we will be tomorrow - to take this very
seriously. We're two volunteers, by the way. We weren't paid for this.
We spent two months on it, but we'd like to see the UN do an inquiry
and organisations like Amnesty International. We've cooperated fully
with Amnesty and Human Rights Watch. We'd like to see a UN
investigation into this thing in the way they have the resources and
people to do it.
TONY JONES: Since you've raised it, who will you be talking to in the Australian Government tomorrow?
KILGOUR: Well, we are meeting with - some of these are private meetings
so It's probably better not will say. I'd certainly like to meet with
Mr Downer. Mr Downer and I both know each other quite well. I very much
hope he'll make time to meet with us on this. We're meeting with
government MPs and with Opposition MPs. It's certainly not a partisan
issue. We think it's an issue of human rights and doing the correct
thing for the people of Australia, who are for standing up for
TONY JONES: The Australian Government has a close
relationship and serious trading relationship with China. Are you sure
you can convince them that this is serious enough that they should
overlook that in order to examine, or seek to have examined these
DAVID KILGOUR: Well, of course. Does anyone in
Australia think that China is going to stop buying natural gas from
Australia because Australia saying that this has got to stop
immediately? The lever we have, as you know is we've got the Olympic
games in two years and if Australians will say this has to stop and I
think that - and if other governments do this as well, Canada, and the
US and Europe, I think they will stop. And at least the practice will
end until the Games start. We all have to speak up on it. We can't all
simply is it back and say, "They might buy our natural gas" , which is
TONY JONES: David Kilgour, if the UN and independent
governments conducted an investigation and proved that the Chinese
state had murdered thousands of political prisoners, there would be no
Olympic Games in Beijing, would there?
DAVID KILGOUR: Well,
that's a very interesting question. I would like to think not, but at
this point all we're really hoping, short-term wise, is to get the
practice to stop. And I'm absolutely convinced it's going on a large
scale across China and it has to stop immediately. TONY JONES: Back to
the evidence. You find corroborative evidence to support your
transitions in transplant statistics and in information founded on
actual hospital websites. Can you explain that evidence to us briefly.
KILGOUR: There's one particular website that's called a China
International Website. There are six languages on it. I went on it the
other night and it basically says that viscera donors - these are soft
organs of the body - are available immediately. I'm sure I don't have
to tell you that with the waits in Australia, Canada and elsewhere, if
it is anybody who can provide a kidney or a liver immediately, we
think, sadly, has to have a human group of people waiting to have their
organs harvested and there's no other explanation we can come to. The
figure we came up with is the 41,000 basically unaccounted for
transplants since 2000. That was the year that Falun Gong began --
JONES: Let's go through that. When you say "unaccounted for", you mean
one can work out who the transplant donors were in all the other ones,
but there are 41,000 transplants for which you cannot work out who the
DAVID KILGOUR: Executed prisoners, brain-dead
patients and donated organs. As you know in Chinese culture people do
not donate their organs. It's a very, very small number of donated
organs. It comes up with about 41,000. We're not saying it is 41,000
people have died because, as you know, you can take many more than one
organ from a person. You can take seven or eight.
TONY JONES: You are saying thousands of people have died?
DAVID KILGOUR: Thousands, yes.
JONES: Let’s go, if we can in the time we left, to the most
controversial piece of evidence. The testimony of a former wife of a
surgeon who is alleged to have taken - the surgeon, that is - have
taken more than 2,000 corneas from the eyes of live prisoners or in
fact prisoners who were killed and then rolled into an operating
theatre so he and other surgeons could remove organs.
KILGOUR: Yeah, actually I went over this carefully with her. It's the
corneas from 2,000 human beings. And it happened in the Sujiatun
hospital that she referred to at the outset at this interview. And her
husband did that over a 2-year period - believe me, I went down to
visit with Mr Wu. I spent - I had lunch with him, I had dinner with
him. We had a very long talk about this-
TONY JONES: You are
talking about Harry Wu now, cause we've switched topics slightly. I was
about to ask you about Harry Wu. Harry Wu is an activist in this area,
as people know. He says this can't have happened, he's sent his
investigators to this area. There is no giant underground facility,
which she appears to refer to, where thousands of people could have
been kept, no concentration camp and he just says it couldn't have
DAVID KILGOUR: Well, everything that Harry has
said - and believe me I have gone over this very carefully with him and
I have great respect for Harry Wu. Everything that Harry is talking
about happened after March the 9th, when, basically, the whistle was
blown by two individuals. We're talking about things that happened
before March the 9th and that's really the fundamental difference
between them. But the reality is that her husband, over a 2-year
period, told her - until he refused to do it anymore - that he had
taken corneas from 2,000 - approximately 2,000 human beings. People say
you can't do that many operations, but as we've discovered, you can
take corneas out of a person's body in about 20 minutes. As somebody
worked it out for us, he could have done this in about 83 days, working
very hard for 83 days. So to suggest that he couldn't have done it in a
2-year period is not true.
TONY JONES: She says that he earnt
hundreds of thousands of dollars from doing these operations, that
prisoners were wheeled in virtually in front of the surgeons, killed
with a lethal injection and-
DAVID KILGOUR: Potassium.
JONES: ..potassium to stop the heart, and then the body was wheeled
into different surgeries and different groups of surgeons supposedly
pulled out other organs. Is that correct?
DAVID KILGOUR: She
also says that initially that's what happened, what you just said, but
eventually, when people became so desensitised, they would all do it in
the same operating room. The people taking the heart would come into
the same operating room and take the heart out once the corneas had
been taken out and the liver and the kidneys and so on.
JONES: Have verified the existence of this doctor that she supposedly
was married to? Have you made attempts to contact him and find out
whether he can confirm this story? Because is it second-hand right now.
DAVID KILGOUR: I would very much like to do so but as you can
appreciate, he's outside of China right now, in fact I know what
country he's in. But as you can also appreciate, he's basically taken
part in the murder of about 2,000 people and that's a crime against
humanity. It's a terrible thing to do and if he comes forward, I'm sure
he's worried that he'll be denied refuge in the country he's taken -
he's living in at the moment. And his wife, as you know, is also
outside the country - former wife.
TONY JONES: Her story is
like a sort of ghastly, gothic horror tale and it goes on. And she says
that assassins employed by the local health authority, she believes,
tried to kill her and her husband, that she was stabbed in that
attempt. He escaped unscathed - her former husband, that is, escaped
unscathed. It's at that point where I start to wonder about her story,
because the logic of it is the health authorities would have to kill
all the doctors and all the nurses and personnel involved in these
DAVID KILGOUR: Well, you'll recall that his
problems started after he refused to do any more operations and you'll
also recall that the SARS epidemic hit China in 2003 and he was one of
the several doctors who were sent to Beijing to deal with the SARS
epidemic there. And I think you probably noticed he said he thought he
said he would not return from it. But in fact he did survive the SARS
epidemic and came back and then these things happened. I'm not - I
wasn't there, I'm not sure what happened, but I did sit with her for a
long, long time and I was persuaded that she was doing her best to tell
the truth as she saw it. And why else would she say that she had - her
husband had been stabbed? She also, you will recall, said her mother
worked in the health system. So that's, I believe, how she found out
TONY JONES: Presumably, if there is a chance to
investigate to all these matters, you want an independent investigator
to look at all these matters, it would be fairly easy to corroborate
the steps that you've gone through here with this story, because there
must have been a lot of people involved. But have there been any
attempts so far by the UN or by anybody, by all the human right groups
you've talked about, to actually examine the detail of this - or the US
Government or its officials?
DAVID KILGOUR: Well I've actually
met with the US State Department and with Amnesty International in
London, their head office, and with Human Rights Watch in New York and
I'm quite encouraged that all three of those groups, along with others,
are going to try to get to the bottom of this, but there is no doubt
that the UN rapporteur on torture, Manfred Novak, in Vienna, is the one
that should be doing with it. I'm working with him, too, so I'm
optimistic that these inquiries will be done. But in the meantime, this
ghastly process has to stop and that's where Australians calling their
MPs and you and I and others can do our utmost to make sure the Chinese
government knows that this is totally unacceptable conduct.
JONES: Will you be seeking to speak to the Australian Prime Minister
about this? It's so extraordinary these allegations. They have to be
tested in some way, don't they?
DAVID KILGOUR: Yes, but you
know, too, that in fact he just died in Canada a few months ago - a man
who at the age of 19, got out of Auschwitz and told the world what was
going on there in, I believe, 1943. And the world said, "This can't be
happening." And he said, "It is happening." And nobody believed him. We
all know what was happening in Auschwitz and, yeah, I find them
extraordinary as well. But, as I say we've looked at it as carefully as
we can and we've come to the regrettable conclusion that it is
happening, and it's happening on a large scale and as I say, it's got
to stop now.
TONY JONES: David Kilgour, we'll obviously follow
your talks over the next few days with Australian politicians and we
thank you very much for taking the time to test these...have these
questions, put to you and test the allegations on Lateline.
DAVID KILGOUR: Thank you for having me, Tony.